Episode 8: ADHD, Autism and Dyslexia: Riding the Wave Without Burning Out

In Episode 8, Jannine is joined by Vicky Flood for an honest, warm and deeply relatable conversation about living with “the big three”: ADHD, autism and dyslexia.

Vicky shares her experience of late diagnosis, the relief of finally understanding herself, and the grief that can come with realising how much has been misunderstood for so long. Together, Jannine and Vicky explore how ADHD, autism and dyslexia can overlap, clash and create internal conflict, as well as how they show up differently from person to person.

The conversation moves through burnout, sensory overwhelm, time blindness, emotional regulation, workplace expectations, supportive relationships, functional language, reasonable adjustments and the importance of not mistaking neurodivergent needs for excuses.

At the heart of the episode is a powerful reminder: we do not need to work harder to be more neurotypical. We need to understand ourselves more deeply, work differently, and learn to resource ourselves.

Vicky’s North Star question is simple but important:

What do I need right now?

This episode is for anyone navigating ADHD, autism, dyslexia, late diagnosis, burnout, workplace challenges, or the ongoing process of self-understanding and self-acceptance.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well that's the thing, isn't it? That's that's how we manage it. Yeah, because then if you if you know how we manage it, and sometimes we don't. Sorry, it's interrupting me, interrupting you the other way around. Welcome to ADHD Wise Podcast. I'm Janine Perryman, and this is a space for open conversations about ADHD and neurodiversity, bringing together lived experience, professional insights, and the questions that help us move forward. Wherever you are in your journey, you are welcome here. Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of ADHD Wise Podcast. My name is Janine, and today I am joined by Vicky Flood. Hello, Vicky, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Hello, I'm fine. That special word.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Fine. What does fine mean?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

What does fine mean? Yeah, well, we can get into that, can't we? Um, but yeah, I'm okay. I um it's great to be here. Thank you for inviting me to come and have a chat with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Well, you were on the original sort of you know guest list. Um I can't believe it's taken this long to get to you, but we're going really well so far with these podcasts. So um yeah, they're being well received. Um and yeah, Vicky and I work together every day. Um so we know each other pretty well. And one of the things we have in common is that we have the big three. Vicki, what are the big three?

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Um well the big three um are um ADHD, autism, and dyslexia.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Fun in games, and the way they interact with each other can create quite a lot of internal conflicts, can't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Absolutely, absolutely. There's a lot of um a lot of overlapping and a lot of uh butting heads, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Even within yourself, and I think that's one of the things people don't realise is that the the it's like we it you know the battle with the world is one thing, but the internal battle is is real as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:57

It's absolutely absolutely real and and it can feel like you're failing. Um I think for a long time prior to me being diagnosed, um, I definitely felt like a a failure. Um, I couldn't get things right. And uh do you want to give me a do you want me to give you a little bit of background about my diagnosis? Go for it, yeah. I have always felt like there's something different, not right, whatever words I'd choose at that point. And I was in and out of counselling for a very long time. And when I was about 35, somebody said to me, I think you've got dyslexia. And um I wasn't able to get diagnosed at that time, but ended up um 10 years later getting diagnosed with dyslexia um after I'd moved to Scotland, and we were in the special, the big C, and um realised that there were some some more things going on, and doing a lot and lot, a lot of digging, a lot of podcasts, a lot of listening to what other people were saying, a lot of listening to audiobooks because there's no point in saying I was doing a lot of reading because I wasn't, um, and um and trying to understand what was going on and a lot of crying. There was a lot of crying that happened. Um, but I I went to I eventually got my I went to go and see a psychologist for a dyslexia diagnosis because you can't get those on the NHS. And I asked them at that point, I said, Is I'm wondering if there's something else going on. Um and after the assessment, they said, We're not I'm not happy with just the dyslexia. I am going to pursue um and look at an ADHD diagnosis. Yeah, so the psychologist wasn't just happy to leave it at dyslexia, so she said, We do a uh another assessment, which we did the following week. Um, and yes, I it was my best score ever. I got 17 and a half out of 18. Um, and and that is definitely my best score ever. Um, and and I was and it stunned me to be honest with you, because in in the sense of all the listening and podcast listening to and revelations I was having and things like that, um there was there was relief that I that that I that I knew that there was something else going on and I was right. Um at the same time, there was a lot of relief for me, but I started to recognise the grief of of a late diagnosis, um, which then led me into setting up some groups to support other people. Because I'm this kind of person who goes, People need to know this information, I can't keep this to myself. Um so I did that sort of 2020 when I set up Pat Flubbies and uh and and started with that and did a couple of sessions a couple of groups with that. Um because it is hard, I think as a giving person, whether I've got whether it's ADHD or not, it's just me, as a giving person, I can't if it's gonna help somebody else that information, then I'm gonna I'm gonna impart that information on somebody. Um and it's yeah, so it's and yeah, and the ADHD, I've just lost my thread situation. Um the um I know it's we do have to have a laugh, don't we, about there's no ADHD here, is there? Um because it is us, it is it is what happens and we don't huff and breathe out and get annoyed with each other and stuff. We just go, okay, what were you thinking about? Da da da da. So um yeah, because we have to we have to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So um I I did that and then somebody, I have I'm still racking my brains to find out to to find out who it was that did it, but somebody sent me a link to your group coaching. Um, and that's how we met. Um, because I ended up on one of your group coaching, um, of which I now um work with you on. Um but somebody had sent me a link to that, and I'd not long had a hysterectomy, so I also couldn't even join in the same way that I usually would because I was in quite a bit of pain and and also in quite a bit of emotional pain um from some recent employment um issues that I'd had. So it's um yeah, so I I feel a bit waffly now, but but that's kind of what happened. I got these diagnoses and then had to find out more because it is not a situation whereby you can just get diagnosed and and just go, okay, that's it at the end, um, because there's so much to understand about ADHD and how it affects you as an individual. And then when you've got other things that are going on on top of that, it's like, and I've got menopause as well because I had a hysterectomy. Um, it's like there's a ton of things going on here. Um, how do I deal with this? How do I as a person deal with this? Um, so that's I it's it's not something that you can that you can kind of just leave, and that's in my view, and I've got clients who who feel like that too, because I've got a mixture of clients from those that have just been recently diagnosed, those that have been diagnosed for some time, and have kind of gone, I've got ADHD. Um and then understood that they need to find ways of managing it. Because the slippery little sucker will just catch up with you at some point, and you won't even realise that it's it's this dys dysregulation that's going on. Um, and um and that self-awareness that needs to take place uh of understanding that. And even though we can be self-aware of what's going on, it can still catch us unawares. And I'll have weeks or days where I go, I'm okay, I don't have ADHD, I'm fine. And then, you know, a day later I'll trip up over something. Uh not literally.

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Sometimes we trip over because we did so much. We were uh sort of like full throttle going at something, achieving something, thinking, yeah, I'm fine. I seem to have got into this new sort of like era, and no, you haven't. It was just that you were you were riding the wave. But the problem with riding the wave is that you have to recover, it's the ebb that follows the riding of the wave, wave, and the amount of people that we speak to who then get across with themselves being in ebb when they just wrote, well, I could do it, and why can't I do it anymore? Because you're in the ebb. And if you don't have the ebb, you can't do the riding of the wave. And I know that was like on I think it was on, I can't remember which particular talk it was, but I've got some slides in one of the decks that we use, um, that that talk specifically about that. It's like that's sort of like neurotypical people are really good at regulating themselves, and yes, there might be some highs and lows, and life will just do what life does, but generally speed people's sort of like rhythms and momentums is kind of like just doing what it's doing. Uh, whereas ours, by virtue of who we are as people with ADHD, we tend to ride the wave and then come back down. Or sometimes crash, but hopefully, if you're self-aware enough, come back down to ebb so that you can go again. And rest, of course, then being productive. Um, but people hate being in the ebb. Um, and so that is, I think, one of the things that can be really problematic and correct create massive burnout because people think they've got to keep going and going and going and going and going. And it's like, hello, where's your ebb? Where's your ebb? When are you gonna sit in the ebb? And that's when they come to coaching, it's when they're in the ebb and they're like, I can't, I can't do anything. And we're like, cool, let's let's work on this, let's talk about this, let's create that self-acceptance.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Absolutely. I often, because there's extremes here, and when I was learning, certainly when I was understanding my dyslexia, because at the end of the day, these differences in our brain are whilst they've got these, they've got these man-made names that say this thing, um, but we have to understand what that means in practice. The difference that our brain is is extremes. And I was like, I remember going for a walk with a dog one day and I thought, everything's like times 10. You can't just do a little bit, you've got to do a lot. It's really regular. No. So, you know, when I say to my clients, for example, thinking about this, if if this was, I'm actually demonstrating um if we had naught to ten.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

If you're listening rather than watching, she's Vicky's got her hands of like one hand down and one hand high. Yep, go on.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

And it's like if naught is down here and ten is up here and five is in the middle, our our let's say general neurotypical peers will exist on a scale of sort of like in between that four and six, for example, in a wave format, for example. So they're existing in that we exist between naught and ten. And it goes up and it goes down. Yeah, and that that dysregulation that we have, we don't have any control over. And there's a part of me that goes, I don't like saying neurotypical, um, because everybody is different and we all have different things going on in our lives. If we're talking about those that are those that are not neurodivergent, they will generally be in a situation where they their automatic functions of their brain will automatically say, go to the toilet, go get a drink, go and have a rest, have a cup of tea. That doesn't happen for us.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

We're working to the extremes of things, and it will only be when when life life's for them they're poorly and therefore they will drop down. Or something will happen and they've kind of got to the adrenaline pumps and they've got to go up. And those will be the times when people go up and down. Whereas us, we live in the ups and the downs and we don't regulate, we don't moderate in the same way as our neurotypical peers. I invite people to understand that this is not a choice.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Because when we say we operate like this and what have you, this is not a choice. This is this is what is happening to us. Um, it's about observing and like you're talking about riding the wave kind of thing, is that you have to go, oh, I recognise that this is a wave, I recognise that this is a nib, I recognise X, Y, and Z, so that you can be in a position to be able to deal with that and and pull yourself out of it or find your way and have a tool for it. Well, that's the thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

That's that's how we manage it. So one of the things in terms of because people will come to us and they'll say, I'm really struggling to sort of to to sort of take things in my stride and to moderate and to be to be level like everybody else is, like I see everybody else is doing. And and actually there's a a real challenge here in terms of doing that, because riding the wave is kind of that's where the superpower narrative comes from, even though we don't use the superpower narrative, that's where it comes from because you do you do that. Um, but the reality is like absolutely do ride that wave, but if you don't plan your ebb, if you don't say, and at this point I'm stopping and I'm going to rest, it will come when you don't want it to come. And so part of the moderating is like it's not don't ride the wave, it's recognizing that you've got to stop before you crash, and you've got to love yourself when you're in the ebb, because the more you can accept the ebb, the shorter the ebb, the more thorough the ebb. So therefore you get back up and you go again, and you don't look like this flailing mess to yourself and to other people. You won't you're not judging yourself so much, and other people aren't judging you quite so much because you're like, I'm going at this through full throttle, I'm gonna need some downtime afterwards, and depending on your situation, depending on your employer, depending on your life situation, hopefully there is some tolerance for that ebb. But ultimately, employers need to understand that if somebody's going full throttle at it, that they're going to come down from that and need time to recover before they can go again. And if you want the benefit from what that person can do at the top, you have to accept the ebb. Otherwise, they can't give you full throttle.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

And we'll always give you full throttle.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Always.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Because that's where we live. That's where we live. 150%. Um, and especially if we love what we're doing, uh, we're gonna go in there 150%. Um, and and then that what what is what ultimately can lead to burnout. Um, I do you know, I I do wish that I'd known about it sooner. Um, I know that certainly part parts of my life, for example, I became a youth worker because I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. I just really struggled with getting out of bed, and now it turns out I oh well I have a different circadian rhythm. That explains the reason why I struggle to get out of bed. I'm not lazy. I just I just I'm at the different end of the day to other people where my husband can get up at four o'clock and and be fine, kind of thing. So, but you know, I'd be useless by five o'clock in the morning if I got up at four. Um, so you have to find it's part of the self-awareness when you're going through this journey of learning what works for you, what doesn't work for you, and how you have to adjust to enable that to work for you. Um, and there's still going to be times where it doesn't work for you, you know, and you will be caught out. But it's that awareness of knowing that that's the situation, and it's not I'm a failing adult that's depressed and I can't get better and things like that. That that becomes a completely different.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Well, there's your learned helplessness that um that we have to we do experience with with with coaching clients sometimes, but of course, mostly speaking, if people have come to us for coaching, they're kind of ready for that sort of input, generally speaking.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

I mean, I I'm thinking about I had um a personal experience uh uh it's a good few weeks ago now, um but I went to visit in-laws and there was a plan to do some things and I had to go to IKEA and I I just ended up in the in the middle of IKEA in tears. Had to leave IKEA, um, sat outside crying my eyes out. I'm 51, crying my eyes out, ringing my husband to say, Can you come back for me? I'm 51, but I was in a place that I didn't know, I couldn't understand how to get out, and I was exhausted from the the you know the 400-mile drive the day before. And I went back to my mother-in-law's and went to bed and said, I'm exhausted. But the narrative previously would have been I'm depressed, and my husband would have mollycoddled and and and it's lovely that he takes care of me, but there would have been a different narrative. Now it's not to say that I don't still suffer from depression because I do, but I understand it more, and that's key for me because I don't stay there as long. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 17:37

I think before we'd sort of like taken that sort of track, I was going to ask you about the impact do you think that autism has on you? Um, and then yeah, I think the sensory and then you know the the drive and everything else, but then also being in the middle of IKEA. I think I think autistic people listening will kind of identify with that massively. IKEA and places like it.

SPEAKER_01 18:01

Well, I don't I don't go to the shop, Janine. I I my husband, he he likes cooking, so you know it's kind of that lovely that that that lovely um situation where um I put up shelves and he does the cooking kind of thing. Um I had a chainsaw um and and he likes cooking and and people find it extremely funny and uh yeah I'll stop going down that thread. Um but the the the situation is and I've just completely lost my thread because I was asking you how all things went on in the chainsaws so the the the going and trying to go shopping, plan and prepare meals, complete nightmare for me. Complete and utter nightmare, and what I am is I I am lucky that I have a husband who does that because I was six seven stone when he met me, and I looked like I'd got dressed in in a in a ton of because the house was when he goes away, you really struggle with food and stuff, don't you?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Yeah, yeah. So we kind of have to remind you to eat.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

No, I might be alright for a cup for a day, two days or something like that. But I have I have um neighbours who come and bring me food. Yeah, you go to sorties. And whilst I'm laughing, it's not funny because people really struggle with this stuff, and that we they don't people don't realise actually the working memory that's involved in trying to cook a meal or um get prepared to go to the shop. Um it's the that people don't get it, but there's a lot of executive functioning that's involved, and then the sensory um things around the supermarket and who's there and you know, yeah, yeah, so yeah. Try to get through.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

I absolutely love cooking. Um it's one of my my favourite things to do. So I do the lion's sheriff cooking here. So as much as we've got the the three B the b the big three in common, um our presentation of that is somewhat different in the because of the things that we like as it and and our personality is. So um I've I I love my I love my cooking, um, and there's no issues with that for me, but I need my other half to do the paperwork and the running of the house and keeping things to time. Um, because those are the things that that I need help with, and we're quite lucky. Well, we're both lucky now that we have these support supportive partners. It's not much of a secret that um my previous relationship those challenges that I had were absolutely used to, I suppose the best way I can put it in this particular situation is control me and used against me. And I think if you're in a situation where your challenges are being used against you, then that's unhealthy. But if you manage to find a partner who compensates for you support them, they support you. Because I think about my relationship with Andy, and you know, he would say that I'm frustrating, and I would say he is frustrating, but in different ways, but for different reasons, but in a way that is complimentary and it's and my challenges are never used against me. He doesn't use that against me, and I think you've got the same thing with Bruce, where he just you get frustrated with each other, and I know you do because obviously we talk about it, but you know, he's supportive of you in a in a constructive way, and you lean into each other's strengths and challenges, and you're a team.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah, yeah, he also he also tells me that we're leaving at a different time to what we have. We actually need to leave when we're going away because he knows that I'm gonna talk I can't cope with that. Ready and do anything. And it might well it it doesn't tell me. I recognise that it does it, but it's not a massive issue to a degree, but it is that thing whereby to m for him to manage him, he has to find a way of managing me.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Well, there's there is that um uh yeah, I I think that's there may be another aspect here of a trauma response for me. If you tell me we're leaving at half past six. But you're not actually thinking we're leaving until seven, but you've put that in because you're compensating for my time blindness. I can't cope with that. I need you to tell me what it actually is. I can't like that won't work for me. Um, because trust, trust is a massive issue for me. So you add trauma into the big three. So you've got the autism, the ADHD, and the dyslexia and other spiky sort of neurotype stuff going on as well, and you add trauma into that mix, creates trust issues. And for me, you have to say it as it is, otherwise, no, it doesn't work for me at all. And so, you know, we've got the same neurotypes, you you and I, or or broadly speaking, but our manifestations are completely different, the things we need help with are completely different. Um, I know I kind of took a bit of a tangent there in terms of the partners that we take, but I think that's actually really important to talk about, you know, because we both spoke at the beginning, we we used I've spoken before, and you've spoken just a little bit now about adversity in the workplace prior to us working together. Um, and that is a common theme in the people we support, and actually as us as a as a as a company, the the workplace adversity is is rife, isn't it? Lots of the stuff that we talk about is it relates to that.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

It is, and you know, it's great, it is great that we have these neurodiversity awareness, neuro autism awareness, ADHD awareness, etc. But we probably need to start going a little bit deeper in understanding that everybody is an individual, and if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism, and and that it's there's not a long list that comes out that says, Well, you've got ADHD, so you're gonna need X, Y, and Z. The the point is you you have told me you have ADHD. Let's work out what you need together. And if we work out what you need together, we will try that and we'll see if that works because we know that variety is extremely important, and what we can end up with is going, well, we've done your reasonable adjustments for you on your on your off your pop. It's like, no, it doesn't work like that. Um it's it's you know, when we're doing coaching and we're looking at um strategies for things, our clients will go away and try that and have a you know, a toolkit of strategies, and we say, never throw that strategy in the bin. The one that doesn't work for you, or the three or the five or what have you, put it back in the bag because there'll be a time when that can come back out of the bag, and you will use it in that particular scenario and put it back in the bag. Because we can tend to, when we don't understand what it is that's going on, and I I think I've been there before myself, even though I just spent my whole life going, I need to better myself and have this whole thing of self-improvement, and it's not working until I obviously discovered what was going on. Um, that you just go, Well, I tried that, it didn't work. That end it isn't because we don't have that type of brain. You know, there are biological differences in neurodivergent brains. There it is on scans, it is actual, you can actually see it. Unfortunately, we're not at the point whereby you can scan a brain and go, yes, definitely you've got ADHD, because everybody's brain's different.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Well, that's an interesting one, isn't it? Because um part of the research that they're doing currently is is around um emotions and um the emotional aspect, the emotional excessiveness, the emotional lability, the emotional dysregulation is one of the things that we talk about a lot and and and deal with quite a lot with regards to our clients and ourselves. Um, and actually the the research is showing that the ADHD brain and the autistic brain has a different response to, for example, emotional stimuli, and just in recognizing that it's like, oh, okay. So if if uh an ADHD brain um does have um uh more reaction, biologically more reaction to emotional stimuli, it would explain so much. Yet without that understanding, you just you have this period where ADHD was misattributed to being a behavioural disorder, which it's not. It isn't. It is it just comes out as being. Yeah, it comes out as behaviour because um you're on the back foot before you start, you're at a disadvantage before you start. And I think about time blindness, and I sort of said about this on the the last podcast that I recorded, last but one, I think it was, uh, yeah, last but one because it was one with Becca. That my time blindness, I I am chronically time blind, and I will always be chronically time blind. I don't say, oh, well, that's it, then I'm gonna just be late for everything. I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna worry about anything, I'm just gonna sit my own time. It's one of those ones where it we do a lot of acceptance and commitment. So the the work uh here at ADHD Wise and the kind of the the core stuff around the group coaching, and for me anyway, the stuff to do with individual coaching, um, acceptance and commitment theory and therapy is one of the things I'm trained in and focus in on. Is that whole but our own slant on it, because actually I think the act um um has its limitations, but our start on start on it, the way we apply it in our context is very much about accept what is that you are time blind, for example. So we help people to understand their time-blindness where they over under where they overestimate, where they underestimate, where their most vulnerable points are, and then that making that commitment. So it's like, right, what commitments do you need to make in order to manage this? And then there's another layer where it's just like, and who around you do you need to get on board? So in those moments where it falls over, there is understanding and compassion for the situation, tolerance, acceptance rather than self-recrimination, other people's recrimination. And it is never, I mean, this whole thing of ADHD as an excuse, that's just not where we come from at all. Yes, ADHD might be the reason this happens. Now, what do we need to do about it? Because we know we have to work differently. I've long since accepted because I've been di well I was diagnosed 41 and now 52. So I've been diagnosed and I'm nearly 53. So I've been diagnosed coming up 12 years. That's a lot of time, and I've worked literally ever since then. I've talked about ADHD every single day. So that's an awful lot of information. You know, we we we know we have to work differently, not harder, you know. And I just I was remembering a conversation I had with um one of my clients, and I was saying to him, you know, when you've got deep work to do, um, and you've got to do that deep dive, can we try the 4515 method? Um, which is kind of like a bit like the Pomodoro, but with 45 and 15, for anyone listening, if you know what the Pomodoro is, um, by all means Google it um or message us and we'll tell you all about it. But the 4515, and I was saying to him, if you can do three lots of 45 minutes with a 15-minute break in between where you get up and you move around, even if your head stays in the game, you check in with yourself uh uh after 45 minutes to go to the loo to have a drink and everything else, and you tell people to not speak to you other than those 15 minutes, and even then not about anything deep unless it's an emergency, you will get more done in three lots of 45 minutes than you will an hour. I think that's my my hypothesis. Please try it. And he was he came back and he was just like, Janine, you're right, it worked. But when I explained it to my boss, he was like, But you're paying for the four hours, so you're supposed to work for the four hours, and it's just like talk about missing the flipping point. It's like the brain can go, his brain could go jet propelled, and then he needs to stop, needs to pause, and then go again and pause, and go again and pause, and that actually needs to be enough. That doesn't mean he does nothing in the other hour, but it might be lower key, lower demand stuff, it might be making notes on something, it might be listening to something, doing a bit of training, passive training, it might be anything. But talk about just getting it wrong in terms of we coached him to understand himself, to work with his brain, but public perception meant he still caused them a problem.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

It feels a little bit linear, does that, innit? And and and a little bit literal that you're paid for four hours and so you have to do four hours work. Well, are you not allowed to go to the loo in that four hours or go and grab yourself a drink? Um uh or breathe, clearly. Um, and you know, it's people are still working at work. I work when I'm at home because I'm mulling over problems or solving problems that are work-related. When I'm sat watching telly or taking the dog for a walk, I don't get paid for that. You know, when you're in that situation of the nine to five, I mean, I'm self-employed, so I work whenever kind of thing. But my point is to look at something so rigidly like that, um, and and what feels controlling kind of feels a little bit like um there might be something going on for that person. But the the the thing around the rigidity means that somebody is then hyper-vigilant about what it is that they're doing or not doing the things, and then they're not doing their job.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

The energy goes into managing the perception versus actually doing what they need in order to thrive and do their job well. So we don't advocate at all for making excuses for things, but we do absolutely advocate for what do you want this person to achieve and allow them to do it differently? And as I'm saying, you know, yeah, yes, okay, if they can achieve it in three hours and they're being paid for four groovy, then they can sit back for that fourth hour and do lighter work and that needs to be okay. Um, but yeah, it's um I I just just I just find it fascinating, really, that there's just you know this this perception, and it's like, okay, but you're paid by the hour, okay. But you want the full throttle. If an employer wants to make the use of the full throttle, you have to allow it. That's our way. Full throttle and then stop, full throttle and stop. So the 15 minutes is your ebb.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Yeah, absolutely, and it's a controlled ebb rather than uh you know that rather than uh your body going burnout time.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

But we also can't get up and go to the the coffee coffee room, grab a coffee and have a chat because we won't come back after 15 minutes if we do that. We'll be gone for ages.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

There can be a transition issue as well, though, and that's why people sit for four hours and don't go to the loo because there's a transition, there's the hyper focus, there's so many things that are going on with the executive functioning. And Russell Barclay talks about you must give the executive functioning a break, right? Even if you're not going off and getting a cup of tea every f every 45 minutes and calling it an actual break, it's a break for the executive functioning, that bit that lives behind our pre you know behind our foreheads in the prefrontal cortex, that is what is specifically impacted by ADHD. It is also impacted by dyslexia and autism, but for different reasons. Because if it could be sorted out with the same um medications for ADHD, then we'd be using uh stimulant medication for autism and dyslexia, but it it doesn't, and we don't. So so we we know it's it's you know another conversation, I think really, but that's how we end up finding out that we've got a lot of people find out how that they've got autism as well in the mix, is that they take the ADHD medication and then bam.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah, I just want to clarify just on that point, it isn't that the ADHD meds make autism worse, it is that they bring the ADHD-based struggles into tolerance, which means the other ones kind of spring up and can actually then be addressed. They were always there, those struggles were always there, they were just hiding under bigger struggles, so you dealt with these struggles, and these ones actually had a chance to be seen. Um, and there's nothing wrong with that because once they can be seen, they can be assessed and supported. So we're not saying people should just be squashing them down. Um, but it's a bit like sort of like whack-a-mole, these these ones kind of like got knocked down. It's like bing, these ones came up, it's like, oh, but then you can see that whole person's whole profile, and that's the beauty of unmasking um and being able to see yourself completely. Because I think you and I I I know that we're in a privileged position where we know each other and ourselves really well, you know, we've spent that time and we have access to tools and understanding and research and each other, and you know, some of the conversations that we've had, it's just like especially when we're in the the in the WhatsApp and a message will go backwards and forwards, and and I'm just like, I didn't mean that. Um, and we can recognise in that that there was a literal interpretation that took place, and we would just say that because we have that lovely staff team, which is like, oh, that was a literal ah uh sorry, I sort of said something there that I I needed to reframe that because yeah, that's a literal interpretation, and you're not wrong, because I think I think my feeling is that that you you do more of the literary interpretation than I do, but then you might feel that I do, because of course we're not even necessarily even aware of our own times when we did the literal interpretation.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

But I feel like maybe, but the nuance the nuance is always lost in a blooming message anyway. It's really hard to communicate by uh by text messages and WhatsApp and things like that, because the nuances and the commas and the what other with the commas are definitely not there for me. I'd be getting into truck into trouble by the punctuation police, um, and and and forget kisses on the end of messages. I just like I can't can't cope with all that kind of stuff. It's like here's the Vicky's too direct. Well, you know, she's she has she has she's on.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

So let's go, let's just talk about that briefly there, because I think that's another thing that comes up quite a lot, and that's functional language. Um, and this this is something I know about as because I've had the advantage of being a specialist teacher. Um, I used to teach um literacy as lit um literacy lead in a special school, so I know quite a lot about this sort of stuff and functional language. If you or I and Becca actually go into functional language mode where we go, we just go into the yes-no and there's nothing extra in it, we recognise the other ones kind of like on low ebb and we just accept that about it. But um, functional language is the process by which you struggle with the extra and you just use your basic language, there's nothing else, and you might be accused of being blunt. I have definitely been accused of being blunt in my time, recognizing now that's actually part of my autistic profile. Um, but when I'm calm and I'm relaxed, or even when I'm being more performative, my language is full on. I've got um uh the way I enunciate, the way I everything is kind of expressive. But you get me when I'm tired, when you get me when I'm not able to mask, it's not always like that. I can I can almost moving into selective mutism, which we're going to speak about another time. I've got another guest coming on to talk about selective mutism, situational mutism. Um, but it's kind of going that way where the ability to be able to do the performative stuff, the masking stuff, if people move into functional language, all you're getting is a yes, no, no, don't take it personally because ultimately that might be a sign they're just on that low ebb and they just need a minute. And so I think that's kind of like another one that we've we've learned to do as a team, but we've set definitely seen the consequences of that when people are employed or at school or wherever or at home, wherever it happens to be, and that's not accepted and that's not understood, and it causes offense.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, and something's just popped into my head about the the sort of automatic no when you start getting into a situation whereby you are a low ebb and you continue to push, then you start to get um no's and it can move into F offs. Because it's like I'm done and I can't, I don't know, I don't know how to tell you no anymore. And maybe that's it, that's a conversation for another time because we we do have that um, you know, in uh when we work with parents and how their children are able to say no, and how children are able to say no at school and etc. etc. It's another conversation, but you know, understanding that that we can't always hold ourselves in this place of politeness if we've had enough, if that overstimulation is at its peak, then you know, and then that causes RSD for other people, for example, and and miscommunication and and and misinterpretations and things like that, that then will scar relationships and friendships and all sorts of things. So, you know, uh there's so much to talk about, Janine. It's unbelievable. And I know that there's a lot of lot of um yeah, a lot of people out there talking about lots of different things and and what have you, and it's all good to talk about. Vicki, what's your North Star?

SPEAKER_00 39:40

And by the way, when I spoke to Vin I asked Vicki this question, she's like, What do you mean by my north star? And you had to reframe it before you were able to answer it, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

I have a couple of sayings that I go by in a sense, and and one of them is resource yourself. Um, somebody told me that once. Um, and and that means what what do you need to ask yourself what do you read need right now? So I would say to myself, what do I need right now? Um and I do ask myself on a regular basis this question, and so I would invite my coaches to ask themselves that question as well when they're checking in with themselves, but to do it on a regular basis. Um yeah, I think I will, yeah. I've got lots, but I have a bag full.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

So if you're listening to this, please take a deep breath now and ask yourself, what do I need right now? Um because meeting your own needs is something that we should all be doing. But we don't always know what our own needs are, but wherever possible, meet your own needs. Um, and it's interesting, isn't it? Thank you, Vicky. It's really been lovely to chat to you today. As you say, there is so much else that we could cover that we can't cover today, so we'll have another discussion another day. I hope that has been useful and interesting and entertaining for people, and we will see you next time. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to ADHDWISE Podcast. ADHD WISE exists to help bridge understanding and support for people exploring ADHD and broader neurodiversity. If you would like to know more about us and our services, please visit www.adhdwise.uk. Follow ADHDwiseuk on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn. Take care and we'll see you next time.