Episode 13: ADHD, Divorce and Separation: What Every Neurodivergent Family Needs to Know

Separation and divorce are hard for anyone. But when ADHD, autism, trauma, emotional dysregulation, rejection sensitivity, executive functioning difficulties, financial overwhelm, parenting pressure and neurodivergent children are all in the mix, it can become even more complex.

In this episode, Jannine is joined by Katy Harris, Founder of Mediation Matters Midlands, Family & Civil Mediator, Child-Inclusive Specialist, International Speaker, Trainer and Conference Host.

Together, they talk honestly about what they wish more neurodivergent people knew before, during and after separation. They explore why court is not always the route to justice, why mediation can offer a more constructive starting point, and why children’s voices matter - without burdening them with adult choices.

This is a conversation about vulnerability, trauma, power imbalance, family systems, and the particular risks neurodivergent adults can face in relationships and separation. But it is also a conversation about survival, recovery and becoming the person you once needed.

Jannine and Katy speak from scars and bruises, not open wounds, with compassion, honesty and hope for anyone currently navigating a difficult separation or supporting someone who is.

Please note: this episode includes discussion of divorce, abuse, court trauma, family breakdown and children’s distress. It is not legal advice, but it may help you feel less alone and more informed about your options.

Katy's company profile.
https://mediationmattersmidlands.co.uk/team/katy-harris/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Thank you so much for joining us on ADHD Wise Podcast. If something in this episode has helped you, made you think, or given you language for something you've been living with, you can support the podcast by following or subscribing, by leaving a review, or connecting with ADHD Wise on YouTube, TikTok, LinkedIn, and Facebook. Every share, review, comment, and follow helps the podcast reach more people and helps us create conversations and resources that support neurodivergent people, families, and professionals. Thank you. Your support really does mean the world.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I don't think we can undo it or blame ourselves. I can hear rustling or side channeling. What is is it staple?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

That honestly is sta i and now the dogs are barking. Sorry, everybody. What is it stapling? Yeah, this they've decided now is the time to staple the flooring down. So yeah. We'll we'll ignore this and carry on. Yeah, it's fine. Because of course our brains need more distraction. Welcome to ADHD Wise Podcast. I'm Janine Perryman, and this is a space for open conversations about ADHD and neurodiversity, bringing together lived experience, professional insights, and the questions that help us move forward. Wherever you are in your journey, you are welcome here. Hello everyone, and thank you for joining us on episode 13 of ADHD Wise Podcast. And today I am joined by somebody I've known for a very long time, Katie Harris. Hello, Katie. Hello, Janine. How are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you today? I am good. I've got my cup of tea in my giant cup, so all is well. All is well with a giant cup of tea. Brilliant stuff. Brilliant. So I first met Katie when a friend of mine introduced us because I was looking to get a small dog. Our Poppy Dots. So she we called her Poppy, but you called her Dottie. So she ended up being called Poppy Dots, and she's still called Poppy Dots to this day. So she kept both sort of things, and she's a gorgeous teacup chihuahua. Who I will probably pull on screen at some point. Not today, but another day. So that's how I met Katie. Yeah. And it was a long time ago. And we've had quite a lot of lovely, wonderful, and also some quite sad conversations ever since.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

I think we were meant to meet. I think that's for sure. And you've been there for me when I've struggled many things, and I think vice versa, when I think that we've both got an understanding of what it feels like, and I think that's quite unique. Without even ever having that conversation. We just know. So yeah, it's been a roller coaster, but I'm very glad that you are someone that I know, and I'm very glad that we met that day.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

One of my young clients ended up with the brother of Poppy as well. So that's kind of cool as well. Because animals and children with new with additional needs are a match made in heaven in most situations. So definitely something to think about. Anyway, we're not here to talk about animals. We are here to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

I wish every ADHD I knew before, during, and after separation. I think that's what we're going to be talking about today. And some of the challenges, the relevance of ADHD, and how we can maybe navigate the world of separation in the best way possible when you are struggling also with a bit of a neuro neurodiverse brain.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

And you've got neurodivergent children. So that brings extra stuff into the mix as well, doesn't it? And but also through divorce.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

So we're both we've both gone through the divorce and the shiz show that is. So I feel we're definitely experts.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

We're definitely experts. I was saying to you before that I feel like, although I don't know much about sort of mediation and the legal process other than what I experienced firsthand, I feel like I am an expert by experience because I am actually divorced three times, which is actually very common for neurodivergent women, particularly ones who've had adversity. And so as a careler, I was definitely more predisposed to those vulnerabilities and have lived that stereotype. And although the first two, which were the respectively the fathers of my children, we have amical relationships, the last one was awful. And even though that was only matrimonial finances, the ordeal gave me BTSD. I was quite badly treated in the court system. And I think one of the things, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on, Katie, was because I feel like I thought, and as a neurodivergent person, I definitely thought that the only thing that mattered in matrimonial law was the truth. Oh. And that's not the case, is it? I was absolutely wrong.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

So let's start with that, shall we? Yeah. Well, let's flip back because we didn't actually say why I'm here to talk today. So I am a family mediator. I ended up in this space, and this is probably also relevant to where I am, and hopefully it will also inspire some people that are ADHD and maybe haven't achieved well during the schooling, etc. I was the clever one that never succeeded. So I took myself off to do my A levels at night school because I didn't get the grades to be able to do them at normal school, and then I failed them miserably, lost my dad very tragically two months before my exams. So I failed those, but needless to say, never give up. I still managed to wangle my way into university at night school, studied law, stepped into the legal world and very quickly stepped back out, having realized that it isn't ethical, justice isn't justice, the truth doesn't prevail, and it didn't fit with my ethics. And I very quickly moved out of that arena. I then worked for 17 years as a child development consultant. I was teaching how to build strong resilient human beings, of which I had three, then went through a terrible divorce. They were no longer three strong resilient human beings at that point, and I realized that what I was teaching felt quite fraudulent because actually, if it doesn't matter how strong those children are, if there's a difficult divorce or trauma, then it can break them. So I stopped teaching and I retrained as a family mediator, and now I work as a family mediator and a trainer, and I train on conflict resolution as well, so it's broader than just family mediation. So, what is family mediation is probably a question on many people's lips. It definitely isn't, it definitely isn't counselling, it's not relationship therapy. It is when you have a broken down relationship and you have to discuss and agree on how the children are cared for, when they spend time with each other, how you're separated, how you would separate your finances, properties, etc. etc. Many people, if you ask in the street, you go through divorce, who do you speak to first? They would say a solicitor. I would say no. You go to a mediator and you attend what's known as a myam, so a mediation information assessment meeting, and that's a one-to-one with a mediator in which you would talk about what's happened, have an opportunity to offload, and then explore what options are available to you. So that might be mediation, it might be arbitration, it might be early neutral evaluation, all the shums, it could be the court. The court should be the last resort. And anyone will tell you that, any good solicitor will tell you that, judges will tell you that. No one wants to make a decision, no judge or magistrate wants to make a decision about where your children should spend time and when. They're never going to meet your child, and they can only base that on information that's given to them. And like you said, quite rightly, Janine, justice isn't justice. I went through the courts and my ex-husband decided to fight for having care of just my middle son. So I had three boys, and my middleson, as per recommendation by Kafkas, let's listen to Child's Voice at the age of 11. I want to live with dad, and I won't go into what was the absolute shiz show that followed that. But needless to say, he is back with me, he's 19 now. But yes, it was an absolute disaster, and that was the point that I thought I cannot continue to do the job that I'm doing. I've got to do something different. So I became a family mediator, and now I get to be the good person that sits between two quarrelling adults, and I don't have to make decisions, which is great. The clients make decisions, but I can help them work through all of their issues, I can reframe, I can summarise, I can help them to hear the other person when they're stuck, and all those wonderful skills that actually many ADHDs have: the empathy, the problem solving, the seeing solutions that many people don't have, they're great. And I feel like I've really found my forte. I thought I'd found it as a child development consultant, and I loved doing that work. And I think that I was meant to travel this path because obviously my experience also working with children, particularly N and S EMH, I think has allowed me to have a really good understanding. And I also work as a child inclusive mediator, which means that I also speak to children who are whose parents are going through separation, not to burden them with those questions like who do you want to live with? Because I believe that that is incredibly wrong and dangerous. I think we need to hear the child's voice, and that is very important. But it is voice, not choice. We're asking the child to share their thoughts, their feelings, their wishes, their worries, and we can share what they give us permission to share with the parents. But we are not saying I'm going to burden you with the choice of who which parent do you want to choose? Because we know children aligned, we know attachment, how attachment theory works. A child, when there's two parents they have to who are not being nice to one another, they are going to choose one. And they're going to choose that one and they're going to hold on tight. And if that means they've got to reject the other one, that's what they will do. And that's a very natural thing for children to do, particularly at an age that we know is also quite classic for separation. Between 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, awful ages for children transitioning from childhood to adulthood and already pushing some boundaries. So then add into that mix separation and two parents not working together. That's where we swoop in and try and help. But it's difficult because separation is bloody awful. It'd probably be one of the worst things I've ever experienced. Yeah, I wouldn't want to do it again. Wouldn't want to do it again, Janine. You've done it a few times.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

I mean I'm it will be twice. There was only a battle a third time, and I'm very open about the fact that he did uh end up in prison for not what he did to me because it's really hard to prove in a matrimonial situation what actually goes on behind closed doors. But he is now in prison. So I've had the ultimate of divorcing a monster. I can't go into that more because the people involved. But there's vulnerabilities that we have as neurodivergent women, and I'm gonna say as men, because I definitely support that who are neurodivergent, you really struggle. The vulnerability of being different, the vulnerability of needing someone to be strong when you are in the areas where you are challenging to accommodate the things that you find challenging. I think that was one of the reasons that that I fell for this particular individual, to be fair, was the fact that I know I need a bit of looking after. I know that I need somebody else to manage the money and the bills and the time. Because actually those things are really difficult for me. But a good partner won't use those weaknesses against you. But mine did, and I think that happens a lot.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

And yes, and I don't think it is specific for women. I think it's maybe amplified because I think women are naturally more um empathic. So I suppose for that reason it may shine a bit more. But what we've got to remember is as ADHD is, many of us grew up with carers, with teachers, with maybe our parents, with I it I suppose now with childminders and nurseries, being told no, that's wrong, that's naughty, you're not doing well enough, you're not listening. And part of us have has learned that love is criticism, love is being told you're wrong, love is uh being, I'm just trying to think of the words love is you're not doing well enough, you need to do better. And I think again, that's something I certainly did that in my marriage. I just kept trying to do better and better because nothing was good enough. And I tried and I gave more and I gave more and I gave more and I gave more and I gave more, and and still more wasn't good enough. And I think it's important that there's two things that go on here, and this is I think why separation is more prevalent. Separation is prevalent regardless, but amongst neurodiverse adults, it can be part of a cause of separation. We know that ADHD is. Look at me, I'm sitting here, I can't even think of the words I'm trying to say. And that's menopause as well, though, isn't it? Yeah, this listening skills you just gave away my age, sir, Janine. I was gonna try and fast for your time. Um those listening skills, doing too much, those actually being able to prioritize your relationship and not doing the billion and one other things that people are needing you to do. And I think there's all of those things that that can lead to separation. And I think, again, ADHD is we will give and we will give and we will give and we will give and we will give until we're burnt out. And but living with somebody where that happens is also difficult. I will put my hands up and say, listen, I am not the easiest of people to live with. I will be passive, passive until I am then aggressive and lose my mind, but there's no assertive ever. I'm just I'm chilled, I'm fine, I'm fine until I'm absolutely not. That's not a great way to live because you build resentment because you're just constantly just being passive. I'll fix it.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah, I'll deal with it, all of that. I I definitely did that. I don't do that in this relationship relationship in now, and he knows exactly what's required of him. I will absolutely put my phones down.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

And thank the Lord I'm single right now because I think I've got a lot of work and I'm I'm working through, and I have been now after two abusive relationships post my separation, and I had to hold of a mirror and say, This isn't a coincidence that you have got into two abusive relationships. And again, I had to look in the mirror and go, What am I doing? And a lot of it was what we just talked about, is I was I grew up believing that criticism, that you're not good enough, all of that was love. So I go seeking that, and that's a hard thing to undo after 46 years, and it hurts, it hurts because the people that I love and that love me, they were the ones that taught me that this is love, and actually that then carries quite a lot of action. But we didn't know back then what we know now.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

No, unfortunately, sometimes parents set the bar too low in terms of your expectation of how you should be treated, and I would say that I was in no relationship that I've ended, was I wrong to end it, but I was probably wrong to carry it on for as long as I did and to get as committed to it as I did. But I feel like I I think I married the potential of the relationship versus the actual relationship.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Oh, I absolutely did that. I absolutely how stupid was I! I got engaged at 20, 21, and got married at 22. What a fool. What a fool. And I was also just I was unraveling from the trauma of losing my dad. So I just wanted someone to pick me up and look after me. And to be fair, I anyone who would have asked me to marry them, I'd pre- I would have said yes to anyone, I reckon.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

I was in I was engaged at 18, married and pregnant at 19, and but married before pregnant, but only just. Um, and that had a lot to do with the fact that I was vulnerable. I didn't have a fixed home because my parents, I was at time in the care system, so I was a care lever. So it that left me with all those vulnerabilities. I was a single parent, divorced single parent by the time I was 21, and then I went to university.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

But then I think that's how we do these things. But you know what? The other option is we don't do it at all. We can do it back to front and upside down, and that's how I did it too. But I think that's a good thing. I think it again it shows that ability to be determined, and I don't want to get down into like the woo-woo. But Janine, you were January baby as well. I feel I'm sure you were. No, I'm June, I'm Gemini. Yeah, it's my birthday in a couple of days. Wow. So my dog was Gemini, so maybe that's why we we have that little bond as well. So yeah, I think I'm incredibly determined, and I think a lot of ADHDs are, but it it's finding a point in life where you're strong enough to believe in doing it and doing it your way, and that's quite a challenge. Yeah. You've got to value yourself, haven't you? Definitely. Oh, I still am struggling too, but I'm getting there, getting there, working on it. It's it I think it's a lifetime. It's a lifetime of learning, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 17:05

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SPEAKER_01 18:56

And it's very similar. Having a child with any needs, any additional needs, any physical needs, emotional needs, mental needs, neurodiverse needs, any anything we know that adds pressure to a relationship. It's like the loss of a child. We know that there's a higher rate of separation amongst parents who've lost a child. And the same, there are additional pressures. And if you have an adult with ADHD, whether it's diagnosed or not, there's a chance that, or a likelihood that one of your children or all of your children are also going to carry the same. And that can be incredibly difficult and destructive to a relationship. I think understanding that that I don't think we can undo it or blame ourselves. What we wanted to talk about also was not acknowledging that ADHD is is going to potentially amplify difficulties in a marriage, but then post-separation, what to do and how ADHD is might struggle. So what we know is if you have a Venn diagram and you put the challenges or the issues that somebody may display when they've gone through trauma, and then you have another with the characteristics of ADHD or neurodiverse, there is a huge overlap between those characteristics. So one of them is going to be forgetfulness, emotional reactivity, paralysis, difficult making decisions, sleep path problems, etc. All of those are trauma, but they're also neurodiverse characteristics. And when you go through separation, it is a trauma. So you've already got these existing characteristics. They can't, you can't add them again to the Venn diagram. It's just going to amplify all of those issues. So yeah, it's all it's your ACs plus plus, isn't it? It's the more coming on. Yeah. And complete overwhelm difficulty in getting together the information. So like the financial disclosure difficulty with programs. It's a nightmare. It's horrific. It's horrific. Pulling together all the financial aspects. Ugh. The good news is that if you mediate rather than go through solicitors and the courts, most mediators will use a watered-down version of what you would have probably done was form E. So we do a much more simple, we still request the information. But because as mediators, we don't take responsibility for whether someone has fully disclosed or anything else like that, solicitors will do that. So it will only work where there's a level of trust in a relationship. But even a solicitor can't force somebody to provide more information than they already have. A court's the only place that can enforce something like that. If you live in a world where you think that court's gonna find you justice, then you haven't experienced it. I did. I genuinely did believe that it was such a shock to me. I did. I also believed that okay, it's gonna go to court, that's really unhelpful. I didn't want it to, but ultimately, how I would say is if you've got the money to throw. At a great barrister, then yeah, you might win. But it doesn't come down to who's right, who's ethical, or anything else. Who fights the best fight in the court, and that was horrific. I remember, and I get on with anybody, and you'll know this, Janine. I get on with anybody, but in a situation where it's so stressful, I met my barrister in the court the day of my court hearing. And I remember my solicitor, who I became very close to as a friend, she had to come in and say to me, Katie, you're coming across really aggressive. And I was like, What? Because I was so terrified. We were fighting over our children. I was terrified. And I trusted and I knew that my solicitor knew my case inside and out. And it was only at the last minute that he instructed a barrister that my solicitor said he's instructed this barrister that's really quite a good barrister. And I don't feel comfortable going up against them. So I'm going to get you a barrister. And I went from thinking, I know that you know my case inside and out, and you know me inside and out, you will fight the right way, to suddenly being given someone I'd never met before who didn't understand me, who felt that my passion for fighting for my children and terror of losing them was me being combative. I think that's another thing that we've got to acknowledge is ADHD is how we come across is not how we feel inside often. We struggle, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 23:35

It's the emotional regulation. It is the emotional regulation. I just want to say though, it isn't just the emotion. So it's there's the trauma aspect, the adversity aspect of this, and there's also the neurodiversion aspect of this. And we're not just talking ADHD here. Any level of autistic traits going to mean you're going to take things literally. You're going to be on the back foot and you're you're going to be in a situation where you don't trust. I now have real trust issues having I just recently been through a tribunal and the way I conducted myself was very guarded. I definitely was very contained. I wouldn't go so far as to say I was masked, but it did say about my neurodivergence, but then I went into a very contained version of myself and I had prepped and prepped because I knew that the truth wasn't the only thing that mattered. It was you being able to say, and this and this to a judge. And then when they say to you, What about this? you've got to be able to respond. And I learnt that. And yeah, I think there's something about the about the power imbalance because I thought, because it happened once, I knew one case where a judge had said, No, I'm not letting you be represented by a barrister when the other person's representing themselves because that creates a power imbalance. Now a judge can make that judgment call, but they typically don't. They rarely do.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

And I thought they would. No. No. And the thing is, and I so I work on a court pilot at the moment, and what I see also behind the scenes is, for example, what drives it's politics. And we have cases where they could refer the cases out into mediation, but what that will do is it will make them the time scale, is what they judge their success on. So it's how quickly can we get a hearing in? How long are people waiting for a court hearing? And so one of the arguments was if we're then going to adjourn for mediation and then they come back for their first hearing, it's going to skew our figures. And I said, What's important? Is it the wrong thing then quickly and out, and they're going to cycle back round and come back again? And we are also seeing that the there's an increase in applications to court. That'll be because many of them are second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh applications. Surely we should be measuring this on successful, sustainable outcomes, but actually they're not sustainable. You don't measure the right thing. It's get in, get out. And I'm like, this you're not measuring this on the right thing. I had a long chat with somebody about this last night, so it's a real bug bear. And there's changes in the course now, and that we've got now what are considered child-focused courts. It was previously Pathfinder, and then we're moving to that. And on paper, great. On paper, brilliant. In practice, I don't think it's gonna work. I don't think it'll work. And I think by the time we start seeing that it doesn't work, we're then so far into more destructive orders that we've then got to undo all of that. And by the time we change again, we're talking another eight years probably, and then we'll put something else in place. And it is really sad because we do have to look at what we're doing and how we're achieving and everything else, but we're marking things in the wrong way. We're looking at things getting in a hearing in and an order and getting them out isn't a solution. That was my in my so nest to cheese my case. The judge in my case, I'm sure, thought that's it. Final order, job done, arranged the children. Here's a child arrangements order. What they didn't see on that day where they thought they'd done their job well, was the services that that we then had to involve in the next two years, three years, which involved police, young offenders, child and criminal exploitation team, inclusion partnership, school, social workers, emergency foster. I think that's probably it.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Is that enough? Anybody listening to this might be like quite horrified, but Katie and I are both speaking from our scars and our bruises, not our open wounds. Okay, now if we can say that with these quiet devastating cases, I guess what we want to be saying to you here is as however hard it is, you are going to come out the side of it, and so are your children. And yes, everything will be different, and no, these things shouldn't happen, but they do. And I'm also just want to say, and if anybody's because I can just imagine people sitting here like crying as they're listening to this. So I just want to say if you're not you right now doing that, find a way to DM us, and we will absolutely have a conversation with you because I am now worried about people because we have shared so openly, but we are speaking from our scars and bruises, no open wounds here. So we are evidence of women who've gone through it. Come out the other side, have something to say, and it shaped the professionals that we've become for other people like you who are listening. That's who we are now. We are who you needed, we are who we needed back then, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

And I can deem my job so much better because of my lived experience. And like you say, we've healed from these things, but it makes us better in our professional capacity. I can absolutely feel how my clients feel because I've been there and I understand it. And yeah, it might be terrifying, but I also think we've got to be realistic, Janine. You and I are two fairly strong, decent human beings, and we've both had really awful experiences. And this isn't just yours and my story. So many people's this happens day in, day out. I used to do some work for Families Need Fathers, which then became both parents' matter, for match mothers, mostly parents who have then been separated from their child for usually because of a court, certainly because of separation, and the harm that causes you. We create these children, these beautiful humans that we love dearly, and we might dislike them all so often. And and I certainly dislike my middle son when he did go to live with his dad, he was a horrible human, very much like his mother at that age. And honest. But I knew he he was a good person inside, but he was in a trauma state, and so all of that is so difficult, so difficult. And and and I remember I can look back and say I was not a perfect parent. I definitely wasn't. I was my worst self post-separation. I was broken by it, it it blindsided me. I wasn't expecting it. My husband just basically got up one day and walked out and left me and three children. And then being me, I the divorce papers landed on my doorstep, and that was horrific. It was back in the day of fault divorce, so slinging murder the other parent. And I very quickly decided about set I'm going speed dating. So I think the week that my divorce papers came through, I booked onto speed dating that Friday, and I met then my partner that I was with for quite some time. And as soon as he found out, it was, oh, who really was the unhappy one? You've gone off and you've gotten a new relationship. And I looking back, I was just seeking for somebody to validate me and to love me because I felt so lost. But that amplified all of the anger and hatred, and that's then when everything went really terribly wrong. So I think also some advice for anyone don't go jumping out of a fi out of the fire pit. Okay. Because we don't we and we seek that love somewhere else, and that's gonna fix it. But actually, it's rarely sustainable.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

It is really sustainable, and there's like an aspect of go slow because I I went on to match four months after disclosure day, is what I'm gonna call it. The day I found out. I went on to match four months later, and I just thought, I'm just gonna go dating. I'm just gonna date. I'm not gonna take anything seriously, I'm just gonna go dating. And I met Andy. Such a terrible thing to say because we know deep down, we know deep down that we do not have. No, just genuinely had the intent. But but in reality, we had we we've been together for five years and only lived together for two. So there was like an aspect of it having to slow down. And also I moved from Northamptonshire to Liverpool without him and set up up, I set up home on here, and I had time but to myself to learn who I am, but it also worked really well because I also had access to him, so I had a little bit of coupledom, so all of those needs were met. And I also had plenty of time to myself, and I would recommend but up to me up up upping your upending your life and moving like that is is running away thing to do. People refer to it as running away in my context, of course, it's new beginnings, but also there was the running into Mike's husband, there was running into his family and just feeling rather intimidated and just not feeling like I could survive where I was, and it was just like I'm going to go, and then where am I going to go? And I chose to come to Liverpool because actually, just north of Liverpool, it's love. I love where I live. But that whole thing of just deciding to do a fresh start, I could do that because my children weren't young and my children weren't his, so that was easier for me to do than it would be for most people. But I would recommend just saying, Do you know what? I'm gonna go and start over and I'm gonna work out what my life looked like for me. And it took, I was up here for just shy of two years before Andy came up. Yay! But it's not, it isn't, it's that whole thing of it of whether or not you allow it to become intense. But like you say, Katie, we can have all the intentions in the world to keep it casual, but the reality is we are emotionally dysregulated, we can attach the feels, and we are so vulnerable as well. To I am very intense in a relationship, and it's genuine, and I'm interested in the person and duh. But it's very easy for them to mirror that back with ill intent, which was my ex-husband, my third ex-husband. The way that we like he matched my energy. I look back and I'm like, he literally gave me what I told him I needed, and then he used that to so I would never now actually tell somebody what I wanted. I would just hang back and wait for them to let see who they are.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Yeah. I think that's what we've got to hold on to is that when you are in that space where you feel like the world is ne is never gonna end, is remembering that nothing lasts forever and that feeling isn't gonna stay there forever and they can walk. Beautiful, happy times.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

So there you go. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on, Katie. And I think we need to have another conversation because I feel like there's so much more that we could explore. And thank you for speaking from your scarf and your bruises, which I think is very important to do, but not from your open wounds, because that's not what we do. But if anybody is struggling, do feel like you can reach out. Mine and mine and Katie's details will be in the in the notes for the podcast. Thank you, Katie. Speaking of no worries. Thank you, Janine. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening to ADHD Wise Podcast. ADHD Wise exists to help bridge understanding and support for people exploring ADHD in broader neurodiversity. If you would like to know more about us and our services, please visit www.adhdwise.uk. Follow ADHDwise UK on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn. Take care and we'll see you next time.